Curse

Ouchie · Jan 24, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

The Beauty of PvE is you have your own choice

you can go in the first time and die - then

a) go on guildwiki find out what builds your group needs to take and print out the maps showing exactly where to go and a detailed explanation of what to do

or

b) try to figure out a good counter build for your group without peaking and figure everything out together using teamwork.

It's your choice

actually there is a third even easier choice

c) get a run

CagedinSanity · Jan 24, 2007, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Blah, PvE is hard enough for some of us as it is. Ugh.

reetkever · Jan 24, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

/not signed

I know that the game is rather easy, but think about the new players. Even with the weak AI, I had alot of trouble getting my ranger through Kryta.

I WOULD agree with a new area like SF (Not DoA since it is TOO hard for most people, and rewards aren't good enough for lot's of people to play DoA...)

As for me... I like GW how it is, I still have hard times some times when fighting, and when I want a challenge, I just take a hench less.

More damage means one turn kills on casters with 60 AL as well...

Ellington · Jan 24, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Having intelligent, well-constructed mobs everywhere would get old fast. It's fun when you come up against something that you have to work to beat, but when you're just trying to get from one side of a map to the other it can get pretty tedious fighting through group after group. Turning every one of those thirty mobs into a little HA team wouldn't make the trip fun, it would make it slower and more annoying.

Also, the OP didn't consider DP. In PvP it's not really a big deal if you die every now and then because there's always morale from the Hero or the flag stand to bail you out. In PvE there aren't any easy boosts like that and the instances can get pretty long, so deaths have a lasting effect on your performance.

All of that said, I think it'd be cool to have smart enemies every now and then in quests and missions, or in small maps that aren't part of a long trek.

Reinfire · Jan 24, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

You want PvE to be challenging? Try to get to Legendary Survivor without help. Once u succeeded into that, you have the right to complain but not before

Dzan · Jan 24, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

I'm all for it. Imagine how much fun a mission like, say, Thirsty River would be if each of the enemy "teams" was a different pvp-style team.

I would actually replay the mission for the fun of it. That is what pve should be about to me.

KESKI · Jan 24, 2007, 07:52 PM // 19:52

/sign
I agree that a more thought out skill bar is better then giveing monster brutal strength, under the idea of "fair competition"(well I know this is what A-Net want in pvp, dont know about their idea for pve, any paper on that??=P)

However the AI it self need a fix, the fact that the current AI have no tactic sense at all and never evolve wont help, you can give them very thought out balance build, they still going to run it into ground.
As we can see from the Hero, AI have poor idea on "combo", they dont know how to get the biggest effect from their skill bar. And the fact is...they might never will, they are AI after all=P its man made. The closest I can think of will be enter all the data of pvp matches, something like those computer cheast game. Maybe A-Net can name their AI "DEEP BLUE X" or something=P

And I dont know how others think, but a lv 20 monster act the same way as a lv 1 never spell smart and dinamic AI for me~_~(so does every race act almost the same..but lets take 1 step a time). Pluse this should give a better sense of "growing difficulty" to player, and might also act like a guide to newer player=P. They can learn by mimic their hero or the monsters.

The current mob might need a little redo too, not saying they should only have 8v8 all the time in mission...it will be sad for "GOD of KNOWLEDGE AND TRUTH" only have so little armies. I guess given them sense of combo for their skill bar but not as a team should be ok as a starter(not saying monk dont heal team..but maybe no spike=P...a 11 man spike is a different lv from gvg 7 man spike.)

Aeon_Xin · Jan 24, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Notsigned.

1. The player is a hero, while the typical mob is a footsoldier. You hone your skills, the typical mob walks around a fire all day till you come along, and returns for more tomorrow, hell, some just hide underground untill you walk by to kill it.

2. PvE is plenty challenging for most people. Otherwise, you would see a buttload more survivor titles around, that weren't paid for in places like droks.
Try not playing the PvE story several thousand times in a row. Beat it with heros? Use henchies? Done that? Start eliminating Henchies from your max party limit. Done, more difficult for you, doesn't affect everyone else.
What, you can solo the missions? Do it all with one hand.

3. Customer base. It's small enough as it as far as Anet is concerned, this would cause more and more people to leave and not buy further expansions.
(*note, why does it have to be ragequit? because you're all hardcore? pht, get out of the basement for some air once in a while)

4. Enough crossbreeding of PvE and PvP has been done. AI will never(or not for a very long time) substitute for a human at the keys. Timing is better, sure, I get my 1/4 spells interrupted by 1/2 ranger skills, but eh, the AI has no sense of priority or judgment that's flexible, and won't any time soon.
If AI were as good as you claim you want it, it's timing would slay you.

5. If the game is old, and too easy, um...move on? You don't hear die hard Atari fans complaining about pitfall, and still playing it 19.5 hours a day. Why don't you "ragequit" and find something that's more challenging something that's more similar to real people, oh, wait, you're alergic to reality.

That's pretty much it, and I know some of it was gotten to before me, but a little repitition never killed anyone. If the OP is still refusing to eat or leave the comp to pee it might soon though.

Bankai · Jan 24, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

I think people here are mis-understanding something. High damage does not mean PvE is challenging. Who cares if they score 2 kills on you? You kill them faster, rez up, and move on to annihilate the next party because of the sucky healers monsters have.

Two April Mornings · Jan 24, 2007, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Very nice post. I am in full support.

Bryant Again · Jan 24, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeon_Xin

Notsigned.

1. The player is a hero, while the typical mob is a footsoldier. You hone your skills, the typical mob walks around a fire all day till you come along, and returns for more tomorrow, hell, some just hide underground untill you walk by to kill it.

2. PvE is plenty challenging for most people. Otherwise, you would see a buttload more survivor titles around, that weren't paid for in places like droks.
Try not playing the PvE story several thousand times in a row. Beat it with heros? Use henchies? Done that? Start eliminating Henchies from your max party limit. Done, more difficult for you, doesn't affect everyone else.
What, you can solo the missions? Do it all with one hand.

3. Customer base. It's small enough as it as far as Anet is concerned, this would cause more and more people to leave and not buy further expansions.
(*note, why does it have to be ragequit? because you're all hardcore? pht, get out of the basement for some air once in a while)

4. Enough crossbreeding of PvE and PvP has been done. AI will never(or not for a very long time) substitute for a human at the keys. Timing is better, sure, I get my 1/4 spells interrupted by 1/2 ranger skills, but eh, the AI has no sense of priority or judgment that's flexible, and won't any time soon.
If AI were as good as you claim you want it, it's timing would slay you.

5. If the game is old, and too easy, um...move on? You don't hear die hard Atari fans complaining about pitfall, and still playing it 19.5 hours a day. Why don't you "ragequit" and find something that's more challenging something that's more similar to real people, oh, wait, you're alergic to reality.

That's pretty much it, and I know some of it was gotten to before me, but a little repitition never killed anyone. If the OP is still refusing to eat or leave the comp to pee it might soon though.

Q Eff Tee.

/notsigned.

Tide to Go · Jan 24, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Well hard core players(dont know what those are) but if your talking about top level people who beat the game easily, really we only need one....thing.

the cap level, cap level would make it fun for lvl 20's because all they have to do is all the easy missions and beat the game, maybe look for new builds.....but I would love the level cap to raise up, not because of power, but for a something extra to do......bosses, bosses arent bosses until they get like shiro..... if you want a skill work for it, with a 8 man team/6 man team to get it...
more stradigy.....some items that can do stuff to your armor or skills, weapons.....skill bar cap to 10

many other things but....you know...

o ya forgot this....atleast give monsters 10 skills, what do they have like 4?

wynoski · Jan 24, 2007, 11:35 PM // 23:35

hmmm....

I think PVE can be more challenging, but not sure how. I am not an elite player....hell I have yet to get past the gates of DOA and the PUGs I was with for tombs and Urgotz got wiped at the gate.

I want to do Urgotz..I really do, but I am forced to adhere to a certain build BIP or MM or SS to even get in...its formulaic, if you are with the right group..

I actually thought NF was fairly challenging. Dasha Vestibule severly messed up my Necro...yes I know BHA and its pie, but still NF required me to change my skills and my party make up (PUG or heros/henchmen)

Also, I only have 2-3 hours to play per night...I can't get involved in grind at all.

so I am all for the challenge....as long as it is not more mobs of higher level DPS....

BTW, how do you beat DOA...I want the Rit hero...I have awesome rit skills

Prefectus · Jan 24, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

lol i feal you willa the mursat monk boss took 25 min with my ranger and henchies thats a chalange he has a true skill bar

Vinraith · Jan 25, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellington

Having intelligent, well-constructed mobs everywhere would get old fast.

I don't think anyone's really advocating that every mod in the game should be this way, but it'd be nice to see more challenging encounters than we currently have right now and this is a good means to achieving that.

Evilsod · Jan 25, 2007, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Think your going a bit over the top. Conventina the Matron and Willia the Unpleasant have awful skillbars. The only thing that makes them hard to kill is the fact they spam Orison with a base AL or about 160 with half condition/hex duration. Bring along Disrupting Chop, Distracting Shot or Diversion (or hell pretty much any mesmer skill bar Wastrels Worry, which is marginely unfair

) and you've just destroyed its build.... its build been Orison of healing, over, and over, and over.

Tbh i think the best build for a monk in Prophecies is a Forgotten Sage. Aegis, Orison, WoH, Vig Spirit. The fact its on a lvl20 who dies in seconds is the issue, but 2 of them are extremely good at surviving with 4 Arcanists pressuring with Kinetic Armour.

As for the Margonite Anur Ki... bad example. Its a lvl28 superhealer with infinite energy. Shadow Monks are the exact same, but they're both in elite areas. Skree Griffons on the other hand... now there is a superhealer thats not in an elite area.

It would actually help if Anet were maybe interactive with PvE. Every few months or so change the builds of common mobs if they're obviously lacking. 1 of the reasons DoA is so good besides the insanely high damage of enemies is that they have skills from all 3 chapters. Look at the Heket Warriors... Steady Stance... there build is absolutely useless. For the love of god give them Desperation/Drunken Blow. Aslong as the boss doesn't have it theres no chance skills will cross chapters. But seriously... Heket are useless atm.

As for your point about the Afflicted Monks... they do naff all. Thats there point. The keep the rest of the team clean with Draw Conditions, occasionally use RoF and smite the crap out of minions. The Ritualists do all the healing. And they're pretty good at it too. Soul Explosion is perfectly suited to Flesh of my flesh. Order of Apostasy + MASSIVE degen and conditioning. Afflicted are a perfect high offensive mob. Anti-minion, anti-tank.

Other than the fact plenty of mobs have absolutely useless builds which seriously need updating, PvE is reasonably challenging atm if you know where to look. Or just don't keep attempting to go with perfectly tuned builds to counter it...

Lucky_ · Jan 25, 2007, 01:53 AM // 01:53

However, this change will never happen. And reason has absolutely nothing to do with AI, or technical difficulties. Instead, the answer lies purely in human psychology.

In any business, staying afloat means understanding what your average customer wants. In GW's case, average customer to whom game is marketed is a casual gamer. Now, whether we, players who clocked thousands of hours, got UAX ages ago through PvE or PvP like it or not, casual players aren't here for the challenge. They are here for that moment of escapism, and satisfaction of quick and decisive victory. Level and monster design in GW is a direct reflection of that - prophecies, where average player is assumed to be essentially clueless to most basic mechanics, factions, where it's assumed that player is a returning player and has a little bit of a clue. As a result, AI skillbars are significantly harder in factions. Finally nightfall where introduction of heroes in combination with even better skillbars does indeed present the good learning curve, and tolerable "challenge level" - for the casual player. As that is who the "main path PvE" is designed for.
Read up some threads posted by casual player croud here a couple of months ago - you will see a massive amount of complaints about some stuff that would seem enormously easy for the hardcore croud. Perhaps the best example is the still present "OMG, that AI monk just won't sit there and take my axe in his face like a good little bitch - instead he runs. HOW DARE HE SPOIL MY FUN?!" threads amond many, many similar complaints. And yes, that is the definition of "fun" to some. Who are we to argue that our tastes are better then theirs?
As a result, game has to cater to many different tastes, and PvE we have is the "acceptable middle ground".

Elite areas on the other hand, are indeed, for the hardcore club. In there, monks are actually healers, mesmers rape casters, touchers slaughter tanks and elementalists are true glass cannons. Those are the areas that are meant for players with extensive knowledge of game mechanics, inner workings of skills and skill interaction. There is absolutely no spot for casual player there, at all (as proven by massive amount of complaints post-DoA release, which have later ceased as casual crowd has, as usual, figured there's nothing left for them in the game and left till next chapter, and new content comes out).

So let us calmly remind ourselves who is the croud footing the bill for our extended server usage and try not to alienate them any more then nessesary. DoA is already there if you're hardcore enough, and if you want even more challenge, you'll have to do the same thing you did when you got bored of urgoz and deep - wait for next chapter and even harder elite area.

Disclamer: I agree with OP about challenge level and general boredom in PvE.
Also, while I am indeed a PvPers mainly, I'm also an avid PvEr, who has, among other things, a pretty much purely solo elite survivor (finished all three chapters and got most exp from questing - cantha rocks), so I do know what I'm talking about here

Wasteland Squidget · Jan 25, 2007, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucky_

So let us calmly remind ourselves who is the croud footing the bill for our extended server usage and try not to alienate them any more then nessesary. DoA is already there if you're hardcore enough, and if you want even more challenge, you'll have to do the same thing you did when you got bored of urgoz and deep - wait for next chapter and even harder elite area.

Unfortunately, if we follow the current path, harder elite area really means bigger damage numbers and more triggers for Protective Spirit.

Drew seems to be asking for monsters that are a serious tactical challenge, which is exactly what an elite area should be. Arenanet, meanwhile, has been trying to make their elite areas difficult by buffing the damage over and over, apparently oblivious to the buffstacking and AI exploits that make PvE hard to build for but easy to play.

Skye Marin · Jan 25, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

I should remind people that the proposed idea is to make mobs have real skillbars near the end of the game, or even, only in the Elite Areas.

As it has been said before, fighting L28 mobs is not as fun as fighting a variety of somewhat intelligent AI opponents with decent builds on their bars.

Lucky_ · Jan 25, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

As I understood OP, suggestion was to "replace lvl28 high damage mobs with lvl20 with creative builds". Inherent problem is, as mentioned above, in the fact that when a casual players kills a big ass "lvl28", he feels he's accomplished something big. When he kills a lvl20 with a better build, he feels the same as when he was pruning plants on marga coast, because to casual player, "good build" is not something easily grasped, much less fully understood and made enjoyable to kill, unlike simple to undertand "lvl 28".

And hell, if you ever PvP, you know just as well as I do that the suggestion "monk sitting in wards with blind surge nearby" is not fun in any way to attacker - instead it's frustrating as hell. It's not that rare to get "f****** wardcamper" comment in some matches even in high end gvg - and yet you expect PvErs to go through the same thing and like it?